Topics: Professor, Labor Law, Science, Future of Work, LegalTech, Vamoz, Diversity & Inclusion, Work-Life Balance, USA, New York, Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, University of Basel, Humboldt University of Berlin, University of St. Gallen (HSG), Harvard, Career.
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We are pleased to welcome you to this interview. Your career path takes you from your studies in Switzerland to your work as a lawyer in the USA and Germany, leading to your current position as a professor of private and commercial law with a special focus on labor law at the University of St. Gallen (HSG). Can you describe your educational journey and explain what motivated your career to evolve towards academia?

I completed my licentiate, law degree, and  doctorate in Basel . In my mid-20s, I had finished this education and was eager to go to the USA - an adventure in the West. My dream was to study at Harvard and then secure a job in New York. Because I wanted it so badly, I gave it my all to make it happen. So, in June 2001, I obtained my  LL.M. from Harvard , spent the summer preparing for the New York bar exam, and started a job in New York in September.

But as life goes, it often takes a slightly different path than one expects. Just days later, 9/11 happened, a day that will forever remain in everyone's memory. On that day, I was walking from Soho to work at  Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton  in the One Liberty Plaza skyscraper right next to the South Tower at the time. I found myself in the midst of this immense tragedy, witnessing things I would have preferred not to see, and enduring infinite fears. Our office in One Liberty Plaza served as a triage center and a morgue throughout the day and was closed off by the military only hours later. Because we no longer had a usable office in New York after 9/11, I was transferred to Frankfurt for two months. After another year in New York, I then fully relocated to the Cleary Gottlieb Germany office, for personal reasons and because I no longer wanted to spend my days at 'Ground Zero.'

Our office in One Liberty Plaza served as a triage center and a morgue throughout the day and was closed off by the military only hours later. - Prof. Dr. Isabelle Wildhaber, LL.M.

My time at Cleary Gottlieb in the USA and Germany was very instructive, and I wouldn't want to miss it. However, I realized that the work-life balance in a large law firm did not suit me well in the long term. As a person who values freedom, the work was too time-consuming for me. Therefore, after the birth of my first baby, I switched to a postdoctoral scholarship from the Swiss National Science Foundation (SNF) at  Humboldt University in Berlin . I found that to be much more manageable and pleasant with children. Contrary to what is often said, I find that working at a university is quite family-friendly, and the work-life balance is appropriate. So, I found myself in academia. I love the possibilities of academia: it's never boring, you can constantly reinvent yourself and explore new horizons, both within the university and beyond.

As you can see, the course of my career was largely influenced by external circumstances and personal factors - I consider this to be normal. One cannot predict which doors will open and which path one will take. But one can set specific goals and pursue them consistently. And when opportunities arise, one should not overthink but seize them without too much hesitation or doubt.

Because I consider role models very important, I advocate as the delegate for Diversity & Inclusion at the University of St. Gallen for a more diverse professorship. - Prof. Dr. Isabelle Wildhaber, LL.M.

The life of a professor was not foreign to them because your father, Luzius Wildhaber, was a respected professor and President of the European Court of Human Rights. To what extent can such role models influence individual development and career?

I was taken to work by my father as a young child, visiting him at the legal institute or accompanying him to his 'Skilex' seminars with students in Engadin. Judges, professors, and young scholars have been part of our home since I can remember. Therefore, science was natural and familiar to me.

Overall, I believe it is incredibly important to have role models to even consider a path and a career. I had the best role model with my father, the one I could have ever wished for. He was supportive and demanding, benevolent and unbiased, and he fully supported me in everything. Therefore, in this privileged environment and with my father as a role model, it did not take as much courage and strength to switch from the private sector to academia, even with young children.

Because I consider role models very important, I advocate as the delegate for Diversity & Inclusion at the  University of St. Gallen  for a more diverse professorship. It is proven that, for example, female students are more likely to consider certain careers when they see a female professor lecturing in a class.

I believe there is still a lot of room for improvement in terms of gender equality in Switzerland. I wish for better work-family balance in Switzerland, (...) I also wish for more visibility for women in the media, in politics, and in decision-making positions. It is uneconomical to overlook women. - Prof. Dr. Isabelle Wildhaber, LL.M.

When it comes to Diversity & Inclusion: as the delegate for Diversity & Inclusion and as the President of the Equality Commission at the University of St. Gallen, you are well acquainted with gender equality issues. How do you assess the current state of gender equality in Switzerland?

I believe there is still a lot of room for improvement in terms of gender equality in Switzerland. I wish for better work-family balance in Switzerland, for example, through affordable external childcare, all-day schools, and individual taxation. I also wish for more visibility for women in the media, in politics, and in decision-making positions. It is uneconomical to overlook women.

Regarding Swiss universities, there is also much room for improvement in terms of gender equality. The number of female professors with tenure track positions at Swiss universities is still very low. However, I would like to note positively that a lot has been accomplished in the last five years, and we can be proud of how the situation has been moving in the right direction. At the University of St. Gallen, we have made many changes in the appointment process and introduced 'unconscious bias' training for members of appointment committees. These measures have contributed to the appointment of many more women in the last five years.

My acquaintances who move to Switzerland from abroad initially see Switzerland as an exclusively innovative and forward-looking country, which is indeed true. However, after a while, they are surprised to discover how late women's suffrage was introduced in Switzerland (in 1971 at the federal level and in 1990 in the canton of Appenzell Innerrhoden) and how much the entire system still adheres to a traditional division of roles. Most people do not expect this side of Switzerland. I can fully understand the surprise: after more than two decades as a Swiss expatriate, I found the transition as a mother of three from Berlin's Prenzlauer Berg back to Switzerland to be a significant challenge. When you come from the outside, you don't simply accept everything as it is just because it has always been that way. I questioned and continue to question many things that I experienced differently in my last place of residence in Berlin's Prenzlauer Berg: a long lunch break and having lunch at home in the middle of the day? Unusual. Each child has a different schedule, with three children, one is coming and going all the time, and many team hobbies take place after 6 pm? Unusual. Teachers and other parents automatically call me as the mother, not the father? Unusual. During job applications, I am asked about my childcare setup? Unusual. This surprise regarding the strong division of roles in the otherwise innovative Switzerland is well expressed in the farewell letter to Switzerland written by my colleague Prof. Dr. iur. Alexandra Dufresne:  Adieu, liebe Schweiz: Ein Abschiedsbrief einer Feministin | elleXX .

The pace of technological development will increase exponentially, and entire industries will continue to change, leading to the disappearance of certain job profiles and the emergence of new ones. - Prof. Dr. Isabelle Wildhaber, LL.M.

You conduct research about the Future of Work. What topics will be of particular relevance in the near future, and how do you recommend addressing these challenges?

The pace of technological development will increase exponentially, and entire industries will continue to change, leading to the disappearance of certain job profiles and the emergence of new ones. Automation tools, generative AI tools, and other AI tools will become pervasive. Consequently, more and more employee data will be processed - employees will be quantified and measured. As a society, we must engage in critical discussions about how we want to live and work. Some workplace developments should even be outright banned, such as data collection or surveillance that poses risks to human dignity or the exercise of fundamental rights, for example, in private spaces like bathrooms (the 'smart toilet' and the like) or for emotional or psychological manipulation.

For work in the near future, topics such as corporate culture, health management, FlexWork and remote work, sustainability, lifelong learning, and social media will play a role. One challenge will be the speed of transformation. Legally, this will mean that the legal framework will hardly be able to keep pace with the actual changes in the world of work.

Even the legal industry, which tends to be more conservative, should not feel too comfortable. There will be changes, and one can either wait for them to roll over or be proactive and engage with new developments. - Prof. Dr. Isabelle Wildhaber, LL.M.

At Weblaw, we are delighted by your enthusiasm for Legal Tech. What potential do you see in the application of Legal Tech for the legal industry?

I see significant potential in it. Contrary to certain expressed concerns, most of the Legal Tech tools developed in recent years are intended not as competitors but as service providers for the legal professions. Nevertheless, one hears from Legal Tech entrepreneurs who are disappointed by the caution with which their target audience adopts their solutions, just as law firms complain about the inadequacy of the new tools offered to them. Therefore, there is a need to bridge the gap between the innovation zeal of startups and the concrete needs of the legal professions.

In Switzerland, many applications may not be profitable for startups due to the small size of the country and its multilingualism, but in the medium term, there will certainly be not only Swiss startups but also foreign startups that will enter Switzerland through scaling. Even the legal industry, which tends to be more conservative, should not feel too comfortable. There will be changes, and one can either wait for them to roll over or be proactive and engage with new developments.

To reassure those working in the legal industry: it is clear that legal advice often involves human aspects, such as being heard and understood by the lawyer in family or divorce law, in a media storm, or in a criminal complaint. This 'psychological function' cannot be taken over by Legal Tech, of course.

You have co-founded a Legal Tech startup yourself. Could you give us insight into the offerings of Vamoz AG?

Vamoz AG  enables companies to allow their employees to work remotely from anywhere - whether it's from a beach in Mexico or with relatives in Italy. This type of travel that does not serve work or vacation is a new form of flexible work that is not fully covered by existing laws and therefore falls into a legal gray area. Vamoz offers a B2B SaaS solution (Software as a Service) that covers the entire process of enabling remote work abroad. The core solution is a web-based software application that allows employees to submit their requests for remote work, enables HR teams to make informed approval decisions, and helps supervisors keep track of where, when, and how their team members are working. When travel is approved, intelligent and automated workflows guide employees and HR through the preparation of all necessary travel documents (e.g., social security forms like A1, visas, travel insurance), and if a travel request needs to be denied, the tool provides transparent reasons to the employee, saving HR from delivering the 'bad news'.

With Vamoz, companies can increase the productivity and well-being of their employees while maintaining control in a non-invasive way and minimizing both legal and business risks. Overall, Vamoz offers a solution that allows companies to offer remote work abroad as an official benefit and strengthen their employer branding.

Vamoz is a solution for the very specific issue of remote work. I am convinced that Legal Tech can advance us when it can solve a very specific problem.

For whom is a career in academia better suited than a career in the private sector, and what advice would you give to those interested in this path?

The professorial profession has also changed significantly in recent years. Today, we have a very structured approach to teaching at the University of St. Gallen and many administrative tasks. Therefore, our freedom is not as great as that of professors 20 years ago. However, I still appreciate the high level of flexibility, long-term planning, independence in decision-making, and time management, compared to law firms.

Those who choose academia as a profession should not be averse to the uncertain career path, so they should be somewhat willing to take risks and definitely have a Plan B. One must enjoy both writing alone for days on a document and entertaining hundreds of young students in a lecture hall. I believe that academia requires high intrinsic motivation and self-discipline. If you can't draw from within yourself, it will be difficult. Accordingly, I am very cautious about recommending this path to the next generation. It is paved with challenges, and it is unclear whether one will ever reach the goal. However, with Plan B in hand and high motivation, I would certainly support a suitable aspiring individual in this endeavor, as I truly love this profession.

Thank you very much for the impressive insight into your life journey and for your assessment regarding the Future of Work. We wish you all the best!